LIE Ping pong on the move

[RGlueck]

I have yet to see a single P54 or MP54 that has survived from retirement to the current year, without major deterioration.  My hypothesis is that decades of service in an acid rain environment, constant upwellingof petrochemicals, ash, and the like, then the unrelenting expansion and contraction of the metallic surfaces, has made it virtually impossible to preserve one.  Corrosion, natural wear and tear, and metal fatigue cannot be denied.  Unless a survivor is found in somewhat good shape, then cleaned and repainted, sealed and placed under a roof, there will be no P54/MP54 coaches reamining in another five years.  There may not be any in a state where preservation is still a battle worth fighting. 
Whose fault is it?  You can blame any group you want, but unless you get up on a soap box and shake your hand in righteous indignation at mother nature, you are wasting your time.  I seriously doubt anyone is at fault.  Hindsight is 20/20 .

[Dave Keller]

Without complete restoration, if you can't keep it indoors out of the elements, you don't have a chance.

They've been sitting outdoors since the teens and '20s, only to come inside occasionally for maintenance and/or painting with an overhaul in 1954-55.  That's a long, long time subjected to the weather amongst other things.

I agreee with Dick:  there won't be any remaining in a few years.

Dave

[RetiredLIRRConductor]

I have a couple of Pictures of the last 3 pings sitting at shea stadium station, just before they were delivered to the Riverhead museum, and Port jeff, and the expressway rest area. I upgrated to windows vista, and my scanner will not work with it. As soon as lexmark develops a driver compatible with windows, i will post them. Lexmark says sometime this month.

[RGlueck]

You have to love technology!
I gather there are none left on LIRR property as storage units, alcohol cars, or homeless housing?  Are there none of the earlier passenger fleet left anywheres, as static pieces? 
You can't blame the preservationists too much for this loss.  With the possible exception of the Knox and Kane coaches, I don't think any are survivors, or any remain that are worth pouring cash into.  Am I correct in assuming the exterior and interior walls were insulated with "rock fiber"?

[Midwest Fred]

See this link for a ping pong update.

http://www.chessierail.org/stock.html

If you ask me, the lack of preservation success has nothing to do with the weather.

Fred.

[NYandW]

See this link for a ping pong update.
http://www.chessierail.org/stock.html
If you ask me, the lack of preservation success has nothing to do with the weather.Fred.

Welcome Fred, thanks for the link. Let's have a look at the weather. LI is out in the Atlantic and subject to humid conditions all year long. That combined with the pollution in the air (moving eastward- acid rain, NYCity smog, etc.), and this is key: the sheet metal quality AND paint plus upkeep are all factors.

Sidebar: The 1970's Vega I had was very thin construction. Within 2-3 years here on LI the entire window area and bottom rusted away.  Ever see a 1968 Plymouth Roadrunner? No, thin sheet metal. Rotted away.

I suspect the LIRR cars have the same problem, just took longer, but... I open this up for others. Just an idea based on living here.
Best,
Steve

[74volts]

Well...now we know the status of the ping pong that ws on the WVN....and the news is good!

                              Mike

[Dave Keller]

Based upon Steve's comments:

That is the prime reason why anyone wanting to acquire an old car for restoration or show buys them from Florida and/or California.  No rust . . . no rot . . . . some of these vehicles look in showroom condition even before restoration has begun.

When I lived on LI, I had to have a new muffler and pipes installed every several years.

Since I moved to Florida, I had a 1989 Chevy pickup, bought new and owned for 12 years and a 92 Saturn bought new and also owned for 12 years and never had either the pipes or mufflers replaced on either of those vehicles.

Weather IS a major part of the restoration process.  If you live in the Northeast and you have something made out of steel that you wish to preserve, then rule #1 is:  get it out of the weather!!!!!

Dave

[scopelliti]

Couple of side-comments:

The Chevy Vega had sheet metal that was the same thickness as Chevy has used for 50 or more years.  Sheet metal back in the 1940s-1950s was more brittle so it 'felt' stronger while newer steel is significantly stronger but less brittle.  The problem with the Vega (well, ONE of the problems) was a very poor body design in which there were many places within the body (which was not galvanized) where water could pool and never drain.  Hence early rust-through under the front windshield, in the doors panels, the fenders, etc.  Trust me.. I owned three of them!

The big issue with exhaust systems on Long Island is the vast number of short drives.  When I lived in Hempstead our neighbor would start his car, drive a couple of miles to the Hempstead station, park it all day, then drive back in the evening.  He did a new exhaust system once a year, every year.   When an engine is first started, it makes a lot of moisture that collects in the exhaust system.  You can see water dripping out of an exhaust on a car that was just fired up.  If you drive a longer distance, then the exhaust heats up enough to evaporate the moisture.  Drive a short commute and that water just sits in the exhaust and rots it out.

Pat

[LIengineerBob]

I gather there are none left on LIRR property as storage units, alcohol cars, or homeless housing?  Are there none of the earlier passenger fleet left anywheres, as static pieces? 

     The last P54 of any type left on LIRR property was cut up for scrap about 2 years ago.  It served as an alcohol spray car in MoW service in the end of it's lifetime.

[trainspot]

2 more mentioned in the new Railpace (a photo too!), 7133, 7136 at the Ashtabula, Carson, & Jefferson RR!

[Midwest Fred]

Dearest NYandW and others:

1) Don't read too much into the online handle. I lived 30 years on LI. I know all about the weather there as well as most everywhere else in the US. There is NO disadvantage to being on LI re: railcars and restoration.

2) I purchased and frame-off restored an "original" LI Rus Stang to 98+ point concours condition. Won every show I entered for 2+ years in the northeast before selling the car. I know all about old cars, rusty metal, and what needs to be done with them.

3) The whiny #%^&* people throw around in this website about not having saved and restored any rail equipment i.e. P54's on LI has nothing to do with the weather, rust, type of steel, indoor storage, etc...  It has everything to do with having the drive, ambition, equipment knowledge, and managerial aptitude to get things done.

4) The cost of such an endeavor is not much different than doing a car restoration. Nowadays $30K can buy you a P72 in operable condition as well as handling the cosmetics.

I've owned, restored, and leased locomotives, and been around rail equipment for the last 25 years. Saving a ping in the last 20 years wouldn't have been very tough. You just have to want to do it. There are P54's out there today in condition that tourist RR's use every day. That tells me that a static display unit wouldn't take much to keep from falling apart, much less have as a usable car (I'm not talking about going 60 down the main - rather something saved and usable for short haul, low speed runs, and static display).

As much as I have seen over the years, the ONLY reason for failing to save and restore rail equipment on LI has absolutely NOTHING to do with the weather.

Stop whining, get organized, and drive to get something done.  )

Fred.

[RGlueck]

I respectfully disagree with Midwest Fred.  All evidence is to the contrary on the longevity of P54 coaches and MP54 coaches.  The damage is related to sill and floor rot.  This has proven true at the RMPA, Seashore Trolley Museum, Warehouse Point, RMLI, Steamtown, along the L.I.E.  I'd be happy to agree that not enough work gets done with equipment set aside for preservation, but the P54/MP54 cars appear to have been doomed once regular service maintainance waned.  They collect water and the chemistry of oxidation and acidic corrosion take over.  Paint may delay the full effect of destruction, but "rust never sleeps".

[Nova55]

Dick is right about that. The one major thing on just about all LIRR cars is the salt and sand gets kicked up under the frame and floor from going over crossings and literally eats the floors out from under it, Prime example are the ones on Riverhead.

And I don't wanna hear I dont know what im talking about, I know where your coming from Fred and agree that there is little organization in some cases especially the P54 cars but Iv been in these cars, was there the day they were measured for steel for the floors  and helped board them up last weekend.  I know the situation with the P72s and what I have been told is most of the cars had to be repaired due to these problems.

[Midwest Fred]

Sorry guys - I still disagree. What it takes is a plan - do the work and maintain what you've got, and anything can stay in decent enough shape to not self-destruct. The CKS, AC&J, CRA, (K&K), and I'm sure others, wouldn't be running P54's today if the were as bad off as you guys suggest. Those cars have been around a long time yes, and may have design flaws, but they've also seen some degree of regular maintenance and/or rebuild. And today they are still road worthy enough, not rusting hulks.

New sheet metal (interior and exterior walls), floors, etc... can all be redone. Improvements to design and material substitutions can be made and built-in. It may take much cash and labor, but in the end what we all want is to save a few pieces of historic equipment for posterity's sake. There are plenty of cars out there today that have had lots of sheetmetal work done to get to an acceptable condition either for display or use.

If getting a (Boonton?) P54 and spending $50K on metal repair got you a car that could be around for another 40 years (running or not), you have to weigh that cost versus not having a car at all.

The old saying is "anything can be fixed with the right amount of money." No different here. The cars on LI have been falling apart because they aren't being repaired and maintained regularly. I agree, they will disintegrate over time UNLESS we get a plan, get the money, and do the work.

I think there is NO reason we shouldn't have operable equipment on LI, if everywhere else in this country there are volunteer groups with every bit as little resources as the LI groups have, making it happen every day. Some do better jobs than others, yes, but even for static display purposes, it can be done.

This discussion is not intended to deal with the political realities of operating on LI, just equipment maintenance and preservation. And I have no doubt that the LIRR would not allow a P54 out on the line. P72's would be a different operational story.

But there is no good reason for not saving equipment in a condition that at least preserves it until the funds are available for a proper rebuild.

Fred.